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A unique approach to life and business with Terces and Matthew Engelhart

By March 7, 2018 August 12th, 2020 One Comment

“How can we possibly have this community work together and not only be effective—that’s step one—but also so the rest of their lives are transformed?”–Matthew Englehart

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Matthew and Terces Engelhart (@tercesengelhart)have created a work environment unlike any other. This spirit of gratitude and appreciation for the abundance of life has afforded them a life beyond their expectations.  Owners of the largest vegan restaurant in the US, They also have a very unique approach to business, based on the principles of “Sacred Commerce.”

They have a conversation with Commander Divine about the importance of understanding your own and employee roles in a very different way so that work can be an empowering and open place, rather than simply a chore.


  • The Engelharts perform a Clearing practice on the Commander and then describe what they did.
  • How you need to be aware and make sure that what you say is “landing” in the way that you intended
  • Matthew and Terces have started the “Be. Love. Farm.” as well as operating the restaurants

This very special podcast will give you insights on how better to communicate with staff and understand a very different way to pursue commercial success.

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Hey folks. Welcome back. This is Mark Divine with the Unbeatable Mind podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. As you know, I do not take it lightly, because your time is valuable so we’re going to get right into it today.

Before I introduce our super-cool guests–Matthew and Terces Engelhart–let me remind you that if you’re interested in helping veterans who are suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress, then join me in our Burpee Challenge. I’ve committed to 100,000 burpees this year. There’s several different ways you can participate. Go to Check it out. Our goal is as a team to do 22 million burpees. Raise $250,000. And then put 50 vets through an integrated training session with some follow-on after care as a beta program to test that model. So it’s going to pretty cool.



So as I mentioned, my guests today are Matthew and Terces Engelhart. They’re the founders of Cafe Gratitude. Authors of this super-cool gem of a book called “Kindred Spirits: Fulfilling love’s promise.”

Their passion is communication, and people. I’m sure there’s a lot of other passions they have, but we’re going to talk today about communication and how important it is for relationship. For business. And we’ll see what else comes up.

So why don’t we start? First, welcome. Thanks so much for being here. Making the trip down from LA.

Terces Engelhart: Thanks Mark. Thanks for having us.

Matthew Engelhart: You’re welcome. Thank you for having us. You want us to comment on why communication’s so important?

Mark: Well, we can get into that. The whole thing we’ll talk about that. But let me start… since this is Unbeatable Mind, the people listening are all professionals who are trying to improve themselves. And we look at that from an integrated standpoint. Physical, mental, emotional, intuitional and spiritual. So we call those the 5 mountains.

So a lot of people miss communication as a tool. And, in fact, I do want to acknowledge that I went to with my family, a workshop or seminar, in January at your Hana location in Maui. It was an incredible workshop on the kindred spirit and the communication style.

And I had never considered communication itself as a tool for personal development. I just thought it was something you do. But after that, I really opened my mind.

So maybe we could start there. How did this idea come around? That communication itself could be a radically effective tool to evolve an individual in relationships?

Terces: Do you want to go first?

Matthew: Sure. So how we distinguish being is our thoughts, speech, belief, actions and attitudes. And that’s what really we have to manage to have a successful life. If we manage our thoughts–what we say, what we believe, our actions and our attitude–that manages our experience. And so what we say is so important because it gives us our experience.

And in our model, we’re not only responsible for what we say, but having it land like an opportunity over there. Because whatever your dream is in life, it probably includes other people. So communication is so key.

And what you’re saying is actually determining what alter you’re worshipping at. Your thoughts give you your experience, and your speech give you your experience. So it’s really important.

Mark: That is interesting. And I want to come back to that. Because that was my first clue: Take responsibility for not only what you say, but how it lands. Easier said than done, right?

Matthew: Yes.

Mark: (laughing) Speaking from experience, that is. That’s radical.

But let’s come back to that. I want to ask both of you, how did you guys stumble upon this? I imagine you were just expert communicators from the time you came out of high school… (laughing)

Terces: (laughing) Not at all.

Okay, great. So I would say… I’ll just speak for myself. How I came to it was probably through failure. And that frustration of how is it that people aren’t hearing what I’m saying?

And then I would say… Well, I also lived through the pathway of sexual abuse, addiction and recovery. So I also was learning and committing to being very transparent, because the lack of transparency kept me trapped. And so being transparent there’s a huge responsibility in being responsible for what you say. Because how I survived for 20 years in addiction was lying.

So no responsibility for what I said to everyone.

Mark: Lying to yourself as well…

Terces: Yeah, it was just how I survived. And so telling the truth became paramount in just me living–creating a life. And so telling the truth, and the problem is when you tell the truth then other people actually have to deal with it. And so that really for me was a key in checking in to see what people heard. And also learning that whatever experience that they were having, that was their experience. My responsibility was to be forthcoming, to be truthful and to deal with my experience. So I’d say that’s the key that started it for me.

And then, I worked for a company whose paramount in teaching communication skills all over the world. So Landmark Education teaches that and they utilize communication skills. So I worked for and led programs. And that’s really where I saw the value and the importance of communication.

And that your word creates your world. And so you’ve gotta pay attention to what words your using.

Mark: Mm-hmm. And coming to your own truth… or trying to discern what’s truthful. Now that’s an interesting thing in and of itself.

It’s easy to say, “Just tell the truth, and be responsible for how it lands.” But how do we know our own truth?

Terces: Well, I’ll answer that. What I would say is I speak in the first person, so it’s my experience. And so when I speak in the first person, nobody can really argue with that. That may not have been…

Mark: It may not be my truth…

Terces: Yeah. For example I came from a family… Military family, 3 girls. And when we get together and talk about a particular event, I think, “Where was I?” Because they have a completely different experience of the exact same event. And so it really helped me realize there’s lots of different perspectives of a same event.

And so what’s important… what’s truthful for me is my experience. And I can own my experience. And I get that my experience comes through the filter that I’m looking from. And there’s value in being able to sit in somebody else’s seat and see it from their perspective as well. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that was my experience.

Mark: Mm-hmm. So this explains why I heard you say several times in January, “I’m having a story that you’re thinking this way.”

Terces: Yeah. I’m creating the story…

Matthew: I’m making up…

Mark: I’m making up a story… That’s interesting.

Terces: Because I can take responsibility for that. I’m making up you’re not having a good time. I don’t know if they’re having a good time unless I check in. “How’s it going for you over there? What are you hearing?”

It’s really communication is a two-way street. Where oftentimes I think… without a lot of training in communication… we’re listening to what we’re saying, thinking about what we’re going to say next when the other person’s talking. And it’s not really a two-way street. And then there creates this amazing frustration because nobody’s really listening.

Matthew: Being present is the key. The baseline for communicating effectively.

Mark: And not in some loop or story. One of our practices for Unbeatable Mind we call Authentic Listening, which is just to clear your mind and just be there. It’s very much like you’re concept of holding space I think.

It’s difficult. Like I said, all these things are difficult. Not easy. But that’s why we gotta practice them every day.



How about you Matthew? How did you come to appreciate communication?

Matthew: I think I probably got a crash course in community and communication because I was in a family of 4 children and our neighbors were killed in a car accident. So we became 9… from 4 to 9 children over night. And all of a sudden it was like, “Okay. You’re in community.”

And I think I just grew up with some training in how to get along with people and how to navigate people’s upsets. And so…

And then when I met her, it was like a crash course. She upped the bar.

Mark: (laughing) Upped the bar. She levelled you up a little bit.

I imagine when you guys started Cafe Gratitude, which I understand is now the largest vegan… is it vegan or vegetarian?

Matthew: Vegan.

Mark: Vegan. Plant-based restaurant. At least in California, or maybe the country, right?

Matthew: Yes.

Mark: Yeah. Anyways, so that… in restaurants, having been a restaurant owner, are real petri dishes of communication and chaos. So was it that experience in trying to learn how do we get everyone to really be on the same page? That caused you to start to turn these into principles? That can be clearly communicated to others, through workshops and whatnot?

Terces: Yeah, I would say through creating a larger community. Expanding to a larger community. And then, when we had this idea and we began to create these, the necessity for effective communication was kind of like right in front of us all the time. Because our goal was workability. We actually had something to produce. So our goal was workability.

So how do we train people in this?

Matthew: And not only workability but we wanted to transform people’s lives in the workplace. That was a kind of principle of Sacred Commerce that… can we set up a structure or a system where you come to work and you leave work emptier than when you got there? More freed up. More present.

And so that’s… how do we do that? How can we possibly have this community of work together and not only be effective, that’s step 1–but also so the rest of their lives are transformed.

Mark: Yeah, that’s an extraordinary vision, and I think it’s nice to see… I’ve read “Sacred Commerce” and it’s something we’re trying here to implement in our company. Similar but not quite the same is the idea of conscious capitalism, where you’re staff/employees are as important as the bottom line. And as important as the environment and the global community.

But conscious capitalism doesn’t address the how. How do you create a culture that uplifts everyone? Or, like you said, instead of leaving you less than, empties you of the baggage or shadow every day you go to work.

Terces: And also, Mark, too. Remember people have to be actually up for that experience. So there are people who it’s not a fit for, by their choice or our choice, right? They’re actually not willing to do that work.

Mark: And do you select them out during the recruiting and on-boarding process?

Terces: Yup. Both. And then when people come… people sometimes come to something all lit up and excited about it. And then they realize they actually have to do some work. Or deal with some fears. Then sometimes people are for continuing and sometimes people aren’t. And you have to be able to figure out, is that a good fit? Is this the right time?

Some people leave, some people come back. Some people stay, some people grow.

Mark: We have a lot of business leaders and entrepreneurs who listen to this podcast, and I’m certain they’d be really interested to know what impact has this had on your organization? And how challenging is it?

How hard is it to try to create a culture like this where your staff actually is bought into it and is communicating at a level that’s uncommon?

Terces: Well, we just actually came from an all-staff meeting at our biggest and most successful restaurant. So I’m super-present to what you’re talking about right now.

And I would say… I can’t think of any other work I’d rather be doing. So that’s one thing.

Is it work? Sure, it’s work. But It’s really… you can extend an invitation to people. You can create it as a benefit package… whatever, right?

But people actually have to see the possibility for themselves. And how do you do that is I’d say you focus on the people who have already had that experience, and they share. Just like you’ve come and done a workshop and now you’re sharing with your audience and your family’s involved. Katherine came first… she shared. That’s how it works. What you get you give away.

So I would say when we look back over these 14 years of being in the restaurant business and going from, I don’t know, 11 employees to 700 and some, what the impacts it’s made is 1) most of our leadership is birthed from inside of our company. While we do hire outside now, because our growth went very quickly, I would say our priority is really growing and developing leaders.

We just heard in the kitchen staff of this largest restaurant–you want to get… what is it 10 million, 11 million…?

Matthew: 13 million in sales.

Terces: 13 million in sales a year. We spent $500 on back-of-the-house training. That’s unheard of.

Mark: You mean, outside training?

Terces: No back-of-the-house. Kitchen. Prep. We basically spent no training. Nobody left. And so when I ask them this morning… I asked these back-of-the-house, which is our kitchen, you know. I asked them, “Why have you stayed?”

And the woman who stood up and shared was crying and she said, “Because these people are family to me.” So the biggest difference, I would say, is we’ve developed a community that goes much deeper than “I work with these people.” These people care. These people love each other. They have each other’s backs. They’d do anything for each other. And they work in a kitchen. So it’s like we’ve been able to….

Mark: Normally people are throwing knives at each other in the kitchen.

Terces: Yeah. People don’t stay, the turnover rate’s unbelievable. So that was impressive. $500 total annually…

Mark: So it clearly has an impact on the bottom-line.

Terces: Oh Absolutely. Absolutely. By a long shot. Yup.

And then the other thing I want to point out here, which we didn’t share in this workshop, but because of who you tell me your audience is, I think it’s important to get. Is our people don’t come to work to fulfill on our mission. Our mission gets fulfilled when our people fulfill on their individual callings.

And this is work we’re still actively getting in at every level, but we have it throughout our top tiers. Our board, our general managers, our managers. And that’s a very different framework.

So they’re not coming to work to fulfill on a company mission. The company mission gets fulfilled when these people fulfill on their life’s work. And that’s a very different–kind of an upside down model. But it make life pretty exciting when people are coming to work to actually fulfill on why they’re here. What their life’s up to.

Mark: I must say I’m a business owner or a manager, even of a restaurant. Been there, done that myself. And my typical day is to go in there and just deal with putting out all these fires. And someone’s mad at someone else. And someone didn’t show up for work because they’re pissed at someone else, you know? And it’s just this chaos.

(loud banging, machinery falling) Just chaos!

Terces: Sound effects.

Mark: What’s different…? Describe the Cafe Gratitude experience. So if I’m a leader at Cafe Gratitude, what does my day look like? How does it start? How is it different?

Matthew: Well first of all. If there’s a fire to put out, between 2 people… one thing, we might sit them down… as a manager, I might sit them down and say, “Okay, you guys. There’s some interference in the love-force between you guys. Here’s what we’re going to do. You’re going to get this complete, and I’m going to sit here and coach you. And here are the rules.

“If your mouth is moving, you’re either acknowledging the other person. Making a request of the other person. Or apologizing to the other person. That’s it. I don’t want to hear any story. All I want to hear is an acknowledgement, an apology or making a request of the other.”

And we let them go at it. And believe me, it gets resolved. Because if you keep that structure and people have to stay within those parameters. They’ll get something complete. In the story “he said, she said”–“Oh no”… that’s where we all lose our power.

Mark: Right.

Matthew: And so that might be one way. One of my chores for the day. Certainly it would be checking in with everyone, being really present. Really, you do care what’s going on.

“How are you doing?” Maybe you do a clearing with someone. It’s just really all about empowering people, being present. Showing that you care. Getting them out of their head.

It might be acknowledging them. It might be making a request to them. It might be apologizing. It might be coming up to dishwasher and saying, “Hey, I haven’t checked in with you for weeks. How are you doing? How is your life going? Is this working for you? I care that you have a great experience here.”

Mark: And so the leadership models all that and then it gets reflected back to them over time, as people start to develop. Take it seriously.

Matthew: Yeah. Like authentic caring would be one of our tools. Like, my job as a manager, is that your life works. Yes, my job is that the bottom-line is great, and that their life works.

And then we reverse it. We say to the employees, “Your job is that the manager’s lives are great.”

Terces: So we introduced a new manager at Gracias Madre just this morning. And I asked the 170 people that were there, “So, who do you think is responsible for her succeeding?”

Mark: It’s them.

Terces: They are. They’ll make or break that manager.

Mark: We had a similar concept in the SEAL teams. Your job as a junior officer was to make the life of the senior officer better. Awesome.

So you have to think about all this stuff. You take ownership of it and then they don’t have to. They can focus on other things.



Mark: You mentioned the term “Clearing,” and we did some exercises around that in Hawaii. And I found it to be really valuable to set the ground for what you call authentic communication. Cause it immediately kind of shifts into what we call Kokoro, which is the heart/mind. And kind of like clears the space. Is that what’s happening with it?

Terces: That’s what it is. Yup.

Mark: Can you describe the process and like what its benefit might be.

Matthew: Sure. So the clearing is… should we just clear you and show you? That’s much better.

Mark: Sure. Clear me.

Matthew: Okay.

Mark: Navy SEALs like to clear things, but we usually do it in a different manner. Clear the building, clear the room.

Matthew: So first of all the purpose of a clearing is just to get present. To be present. To be all the goodies in life only exist in the present moment. Future doesn’t have anything to provide, the past has nothing to provide. It’s all right here and now.

And mostly we walk around… Most people walk around distracted in life. When we put it in a dialogue, we get some distance from it, and we have some power to not let it run us.

So the clearing is just 2 questions.

First one is what we call the “Shadow question.” And it just invites you or the person I’m clearing to put in a dialogue–What’s distracting you from being present. So the first one… today was what? What are you making wrong?

Mark: Of course, I’m making myself wrong because I have no business doing these podcasts. Who is Mark Divine to be doing these podcasts? And to be interviewing amazing people like you? I’m a total klutz. And so I have to be screwing up.

Matthew: Got it. So what I hear you saying is “Who am I to be having all these podcasts? I’m just Mark Divine, who am I to be interviewing these people? And I’m a screw-up and I’m a klutz.”

Mark: That’s what you heard. I think that’s exactly what I said.

Matthew: And when your attention is on that. When Mark Divine is worshipping at the altar of “I’m a klutz,” how does it feel? What’s the experience in your heart/mind?

Mark: Feels a little bit of tension. My ego’s involved in the process, as opposed to just letting it flow, so to speak.

Matthew: So you feel a little tension.

Mark: Little tension. Maybe a little anxiety around performance. I guess you’d call that “Performance anxiety.”

Matthew: Touch of performance anxiety. Got it.

What does it feel like to be anxious?

Terces: Go a little deeper. What are the feelings that come up when you’re questioning “Who am I?”

Mark: Well, I’m… it’s interesting… for me in spite of all my training as a Navy SEAL, there’s always still a little twang of performance anxiety that’s…

Which has both a cognitive element of I hope that I can ask good questions, or wondering. So rather than just absolute clarity and just presence.

Terces: So what are the feelings associated with that?

Mark: Right. And then I was going to say, that’s… cause Mark’s mostly in his head, you’ve got to understand. And the feelings associated with that is just a little… I don’t know… a little tension in the belly and the heart region.

Terces: And what does it feel like to be tense in the belly? What are the feelings? See if you can give a feeling…

Mark: Yeah. What’s a feeling?

Terces: (laughing) Yeah. What’s it feel like?

Mark: (laughing) Glimpse into my past. We weren’t allowed to feel in the Divine household.

Terces: (laughing) We’re letting you now. What’s a feeling? What does it feel like to have that performance anxiety? What are the feelings?

Mark: It just feels… I feel… I’m not sure I can put a word to it.

Terces: Is it fear?

Mark: Yeah, I guess. Fear is pretty broad, so I was trying to find a more subtle term. Fear of failure, fear of not measuring up maybe. Fear of not quite being enough. Fear of not being Tim Ferris, or Joe Rogan.

Terces: Fear. Okay. What else? What else is in there in that package? What is that?

Mark: Desire.

Terces: Feel some desire. Like desire to please. Desire to do well.

Mark: Yeah. Desire to do the right thing.

Terces: What else? Anything else in there?

Mark: I don’t think so. I’m sure there is, but…

Terces: Okay. All right. Great. Great.

So just let yourself feel those for a minute. Instead of pushing away or joke about it, just let yourself feel kind of anxious. Desire to do well. Desire to please. Fear of letting people down, fear of failure. Whatever it is. Just let yourself feel those.

And then once you’re present to those, let us know. And we’ll ask you the next question.

Mark: Yeah, I’m present to it.

Terces: Thanks. Thanks for digging.

Mark: Thank you.

Matthew: What are you celebrating in your life right now? What can you celebrate right now?

Mark: Right now? My amazing team and family. Some of whom are here today.

Knowing you guys, and being able to share this time together. Celebrate that.

My son Devon. He’s always part of our celebration. Including in our critical conversations.

Matthew: So what I’d love to acknowledge you for is your commitment. Like, I get the high-performance level that you’ve achieved in your life. And you could sit on your laurels with what you’ve achieved.

And you’re like… your commitment to continue and to search out… to dive into your emotional self and your spiritual self. Your commitment to life and excellence is really extraordinary.

Mark: Well, thank you.

Matthew: So that’s a clearing.

Terces: So I’m just going to walk through the steps of that, so the first thing in the clearing is…

The first question as Matthew shared is designed to have you look at what’s in the way of just being wide open to be a big, bright shining light of love and possibility.

Mark: So you have no idea what this person’s going to say. You just come and you say, “Hey, this person looks kind of down.” And you’d go would you ask them, “Hey, can we do a clearing?”

Matthew: No, it just be we do it every day.

Mark: So you just come up and say, “Hey, what’s distracting you right now?”

Matthew: It would be ideally in the restaurant business, they would do it at the beginning of their shift. And people would pair up.

Mark: Oh, okay. So this is a more formal process than just coming up…

Matthew: Yes. And the manager if they were doing a good job, would at least clear with every employee every month or every other month or every other month. Just to be always checking in.

Terces: And if you experience that you felt like somebody was struggling in some area, you could easily go up and say to them, “Hey, let’s sit down for a minute.” You could ask them, “Would you like to get cleared?”

Mark: Is the biggest outcome… I want to get back to the process, so I won’t get too sidetracked… but is the biggest outcome just a much deeper level of connection between the 2 individuals?

Terces: Absolutely. And the other person is present and empowered in their life.

Mark: Right. Interesting.

Terces: So the first question is designed to just distinguish what’s in the way of you being here fully? Ready to go. Whatever you’re getting going at.

And the second step is you just recreate what they said. Some people call it active listening, so you say back…

Mark: You don’t try to tell them anything. You don’t give them any advice.

Terces: No.

Matthew: No coaching.

Terces: So that’s why you can do this with all our… we call them advocates… but all of our employees. Because nobody’s giving advice. Nobody has to have a degree in anything. You’re simply repeating what they say.

Which is at the same time, training that person in actually listening…

Matthew: And being present.

Terces: And being present. So then I’ll say, “This is what I heard you say. Is that what you said?”

And you don’t go on until the person says, “Yeah, that’s what I said.” You might have added or changed a word, and the person goes, “That’s not quite it.”

And what that step does is leaves the person with the experience of having really been heard. Which is powerful. Most of us live our lives feeling like nobody knows how it is for us. Because nobody’s really listening. And so that begins to heal some of that core mistrust in people.

And so you recreate what the person says. Once they say, “Yup. That’s what I said.”

Then you ask the next question, which is “When your attention is on that…” Because it’s not always like that… “When your attention’s on that, how do you feel?” And that’s moving people from their head or a mental construct, into their heart. Or the emotional realm.

People share a feeling, or just as I worked with you, you might ask people, “Look and see. What’s the feeling under that?” If people are being conceptual.

And once they state a feeling invite them to just “Let yourself feel that.” Cause oftentimes we push away the feelings. But the freedom actually is on the other side of that feeling. So you want people to feel the feeling.

Mark: That’s interesting. I think a lot of people probably in my boat… where I was told that I couldn’t feel those certain range of emotions, right?

Terces: A lot of people.

Mark: And so then that gets stuck. It’s like blocked energy, right?

Terces: You’re trapped. Yeah.

And then once they feel that, the next step is you recreate the feeling. “This is what I heard you say. This is how you feel.” They feel the feeling. Thank them for sharing.

Because it’s an act of generosity to share, especially to share a heart-felt feeling. So thank them, and then ask them when they’re ready the second question.

Is designed to move their attention to the here and now. What are you celebrating right now? What are you celebrating?

So it brings you into the present moment. And that one you don’t need to recreate and you don’t need to create a feeling. The next step is acknowledgement. And our version of acknowledgement isn’t so much for something someone does, but it’s for the quality that’s underneath or behind why someone would do that.

So it could be for creating this… creating the podcast. But what Matthew actually said was for your commitment to life. You have a big commitment to other people living fully.

And then, that’s it.

Mark: That’s neat. So it brought to mind a quote that I wrote down that you guys said which is rather than seeking love, seek to remove the barriers that allow love to be present.

So it sounds to me… this is why these communication skills like what I just experienced was there’s a little bit of blockage or barrier to allowing… and if some of my Navy SEAL friends think the word “Love” is a little bit too rainbowish–insert “The Force.” Insert “God.” We’re talking about the same thing aren’t we?

So release the blocks. Instead of looking out here and grasping for love out here. Or God’s energy. Or peace. Or the Force be with you.

Remove the barriers. Interesting.

Terces: And you can’t remove those, Mark… if you remember what we said… you can’t remove those unless you can identify what they are.

Mark: Correct.

Terces: They’re just hidden in there. You think you’re wide open, but you’re like a tightly woven sieve until you begin to see what’s in the way. And then you can choose to keep it in place or not. You don’t have to remove it.

Mark: Right. From your experience… a lot of times people say, “Well my barrier is in my head.” It’s the stories that I run. It’s the belief systems. It’s the biases.

But it seems to me that all of that has a corresponding emotional current to it. And often there’s a lot of confusion between the story and the emotion. Because there might have been some hurt that happened at a very young age, before you were cognitively capable of making good meaning out of that. That make sense?

Matthew: Yup.

Terces: And part of the work that we help people see is there’s the story of what happened. We’re clear that there are harmful, painful…

Matthew: Traumatic

Terces: Traumatic, damaging things that have happened to a lot of people. But as long as you hold onto the story, you remain a victim of those.

Matthew: What happened is what is very clear. What we made it mean

Terces: Is where the pain is.

Matthew: And all the pain is in the story. Which is mostly interpretation.

Mark: Interpretive. Right.

Terces: And it may have served you at a certain point, but by the time we’re talking with people there’s a strong likelihood that story is no longer serving them. And as long as they hold onto that story, they remain a victim of those circumstances.

But as soon as they can uncollapse what happened from what they made it mean, there’s freedom.

Mark: Yeah, I have a direct example of that. It was the clearing that I think… Matthew, you and I did the clearing about my father? Or… I think, Terces, you and I did it.

So I was holding onto a story that I was somewhat of a victim of my father’s own kind of rage-aholism. And this sense that if only he hadn’t been that way, I could be a little bit more whole.

And I guess, like you said, for me that was okay when I was 6. But not when I was 26.

Matthew: Well, how long have you been parenting yourself? When did you leave home?

Mark: 17.

Matthew: Okay, and how old are you?

Mark: 54.

Matthew: So you’ve been parenting yourself almost 40 years…

Mark: Yeah. You’d think I could take responsibility for that.

Terces: But the key, Mark…

Mark: (laughing) I’m a slow learner…

Terces: The key, Mark is to get… that was a completely appropriate response when you were a kid. Right? But now what actually… what I wanted to help you see is how did…? Your father was just being your father. We don’t know his history, we don’t know his past. You know some of it.

He was just being your father. But how did that serve you. When you’re a little kid and you’re a victim of it, you can’t see how it serves you. Cause you’re not safe.

Mark: No. that was huge, because that’s what allowed me to be a Navy SEAL.

Terces: Right. You are who you are because of who your father was.

Mark: Exactly. So to honor that. And to thank him for it.

Terces: Yeah. Have you done that yet?

Mark: I’m planning on it.

Matthew: It’s in the book.

Terces: That’s good. Have to look at your calendar.

Mark: (laughing) It’s on my task list.

Matthew: One of the things we say is…

Terces: Here’s the thing. When you thank your father, Mark, you’ll be free. Now your father may or may not be, but you will be. And then watch out. Then watch what’s possible.

Cause it would be easy for you to live like you’ve already done the greatest thing in your life. Problem is, you’re still living. So now what?

Mark: Thankfully.

Terces: So I’m excited. But you wanna get free of that first.

Mark: So remove the barriers. I think one of the things that people like about this podcast is I do like to go where most men don’t go… in particular. Even though women need to go here too, but… Emotional development’s hard. And I have a lot of people who are really strong on the outside, and very successful. Run huge companies.

And they come to our training and they’re like, “I don’t have any problems like this.” And I’m thinking, “Yes, you do.”

I don’t know a single person in this world who is perfect. Everyone’s either in denial or projecting something.

What are the most common…? Is there a common theme you see that if you could just solve these top 3 issues in your life? Or acknowledge that you have some issues around them, then it’ll free up so much energy. Is there like an 80-20 rule around this where you could just say, “Hey, take care of these 3 big things.”

Relationship with your father and mother. I think I heard you say, relationship with money’s another one.

Matthew: One thing I’d say is check-in with your spiritual development. Check-in with your relationship to family, money and intimate partnership.

Our wounds are going to show up there. That’s where they’re going to show…

Mark: So start looking in those 3 veins and start digging for gold there.

Terces: And also, Mark, I would say it’s true that we live in a culture where success can be celebrated, but it can also be its own prison. And it’s a great defense mechanism. And the reason it’s a great defense mechanism is because everybody else is still trying to be successful and you are already. And so who’s going to touch that?

But I think one of the great questions I would ask people who are super-successful is “Okay, let’s just say you’re on your death-bed. And who’s someone that you love dearly? And then ask them, “What would your last words to that person be?”

And I will bet you it is not about amassing wealth.

Mark: “How much of my money do you want?”

Terces: It will not be about amassing wealth. But the question is let’s not wait ‘til our deathbed, which is like the emergency, to actually access our heart. Let’s create urgency instead. And the urgency is actually created by what’s the value? What’s the heart value?

A human being can live without their mind. But they can’t live without their heart. We’re a heart based being. And you’re a perfect person and you’re history is the perfect resume to actually guide powerful successful men to their heart. Which would actually change what life on this planet looks like.

Mark: Yes. Our vision as a company… I don’t know if I’ve ever stated this on this podcast… is to help make the world more resilient, integrated and peaceful. And every one of those… we train resiliency and integration, which leads to peace. Because you’re connecting to that Kokoro/ heart level.

Matthew: I would say if we could train people in transparency and authenticity–like that would be magnificent. Cause human connection only happens through sharing our fallenness. It doesn’t happen sharing how we did at golf today. “I hit a 73.” Oh, I feel so close to you.

Unh. No, no, no. It happens because we share our shadow, our humanity. We got all these successful people walking around. Unsuccessful people walking around feeling disconnected, because their refusal to get on the mat and authentically share their experience. Their humanity.

And for me that’s the key to real success.

Terces: And because we also know that there’s lots and lots of super-successful people that don’t necessarily experience fulfillment or joy or peace. And the key would be to be able to have both…

Mark: Yeah, it’s not a trade-off. It doesn’t have to be.

Terces: Sometimes people think, “I can’t be successful and be transparent.”

And I would say, “Try it.”

Mark: Yeah, so you’re living examples of that. So you can have both, it just takes a lot of work. It takes work either way though, right?

Terces: It’s great work though, because once you start to do that work, all that you have has a whole different meaning.

Mark: Right.

Terces: We don’t spend our life trying to defend and protect what we have. We’ve actually learned how to live in the flow. So it’s flowing through us. We’re not trying to defend and protect it. Because there’s always more where that comes from.

And love is a much more accurate measure of resiliency, peace, integration. Love is a great measure of that.

Mark: I agree.

Terces: Or the Force.

Personal Practices


Mark: What personal practices do either both of you have as a couple or individuals to prepare yourselves to go out into the world centered, flowing? As opposed to contracted and ungrounded.

Matthew: Well, meditation. Which you’re super-familiar with. Would be one.

And I have this… One of my little sayings is, “Your upset is my meditation.” Like, I’m 100% responsible for my experience. And the circumstances of the world are just grist for my mill to stay present and to stay in my heart. So I see the world as my training tool. It’s my gym.

And it’s just there to test me and see how grounded, how centered, how much I’m really in my heart. And in present. So it requires being really observant. Internally observant.

Because it’s all… everything that the world’s going to trigger is here. It looks like it’s out here, but it’s here. And so it’s… I just really take on being observant with my thoughts. Not just in meditation, but it’s all a meditation.

Mark: So your whole day, life is a practice of trying to be present. That’s interesting.

Matthew: And when I go unconscious, and when I am not present and I see that it impacts someone else, I clean it up. I apologize. I lost the plot. I lose the plot.

I think it’s about that perfect cup of coffee or whatever other nonsense I’m chasing. But yeah, I clean it up.

Terces: And I would say for myself there’s 4 things. The first one, to me, is like tell the truth. So it’s like, “share my authentic experience. Tell the truth.” Stay in the moment. Because the only thing that would have me not say that is past or future regret or remorse or fear.

Stay in the moment, and then open up to love. And I would say I’ve… I see–like Matthew–we have that in common, that every moment is an opportunity to either be a part of the love force or be a part of the fear force. And I’m actually committed to being on the love team.

Matthew: You can only serve one master at a time.

Mark: Right. We say, feed the Courage Wolf. Which is like the love force. Or starve fear. Committing to not being on the fear force.

Do either of you have a mantra that keeps you centered, or keeps you in the love flow? Or something that you say over and over and over. Especially if you get distracted, it brings you back.

Terces: I would say, “What would love do now?”

Mark: What would love do now?

Terces: If love were here, cause I’m not feeling it right now, what would it do?

Mark: Interesting, yeah. That’s a great mantra. I love that.

Matthew: And then the mission we have as a couple is love courageously expressed in the world. So that’s just kind of a north star.

So am I courageously expressing love right now? Or I’m a being a whiny little baby?

Mark: That’s awesome.



Since I took the time to write these quotes down, I want to get to these. So what I want to do is talk about some of them. I’ve already touched on. But read the quote and then let’s drag out the 10 superpowers, or whichever ones are relevant. Right? Cause they’re so awesome.

But I wanna start back with this one we started with. Cause this is like the crux of being present. “Take responsibility not just for what I say, but for how it lands.”

And that sounds cute, but I know how much is in that statement. How challenging it can be and just how much is involved in being present enough to realize–like Terces you said. You just said something… or maybe Matthew.

You said that just landed wrong. Most people are completely ignorant of that. How do we do that? What’s the superpower here?

Matthew: Well, one of them would be to always check in. So I could say, “Mark, there’s a conversation that I want to have with you. I’m concerned it’s not going to land like an opportunity.” Like I could even preface it with that. Like, “I have something to say to you, and my concern is you won’t hear it as love. You’ll hear it as criticism. So here we go.”

And then I share it. That’s one way.

Or to speak it, and then say, “What are you hearing?” So the other way is, “Hey, Mark, I think that the blog is a complete disaster.” And then I’d say, “What are you hearing?”

Mark: (laughing) I screwed up.

Matthew: No, that’s not what I mean. I hear that you hear “I screwed up,” but what I’m saying is it could be more powerful. I would never say it’s a “disaster.” I would always say “I think the blog could be more powerful.” And I don’t think that, but for modelling it. “I think the blog could be more powerful. What do you hear?” And you’d say, “I hear I screwed up.” And I’d say, “Nope. That’s not what I said. I’m on your team. I’m a team player. Let’s make this thing even more powerful.”

Terces: And I think oftentimes asking people, “What did you hear?” Is great.

Mark: Could you even say, “How did that land with you?”

Matthew: Sure. Absolutely.

Terces: Or what do you present to now. The key is…

Mark: What’s your truth and what’s your story around this?

Terces: The key is to be able to speak in a way that they can hear. So if people are aware of “what are you present to?” Some people will be, “what do you mean? Right now?” other people would understand.

Mark: I have dropped so many hand grenades with email communications, because people generally read email in a different way than they have communication… Because you’re missing all the nuance. All the facial language and everything.

Do you guys communicate by email much?

Terces: I do a lot of email communication, but I prefer voice-to-voice.

Mark: How do you protect against…?

Terces: Well, I think probably how I protect against that is… I would say if I’m sending an abrupt or… I would probably say I don’t send that many. I would say those are the people I either call or…

Mark: If you feel think it could be taken in negative way.

Terces: Yeah. If I feel like I don’t know where they are at this time. I would probably not do that.

Mark: I read somewhere someone did some research–this is interesting–that if you are sending an email and you’re feeling positive about it, just expect that it’ll be received as neutral. And if you’re sending an email which is kind of neutral, like, “Hey, this has just happened.” Expect that it’s going to be received as negative. As criticism.

Matthew: Great. So yeah, I can get that.

Terces: Because remember that’s the filter most people are afraid they’ve messed up.

Mark: So I’m the only Navy SEAL who uses emojis on my email communications. Smiley face, thumbs up.

Terces: That’s so funny that you say that because I sent a letter to our lawyer and I had a little red heart on it. And he wrote back, “That’s the first heart I’ve ever received.”

Mark: (laughing) Lawyer’s don’t get a lot of hearts.

Matthew: It’s true.

Terces: And I was like, wow. He’s been in practice 20 some years. And he said, “Terces, that’s the first heart I’ve ever received.” That was the cutest thing ever. I just assumed we all were good with those.

Matthew: Let’s give you a little formula for hard conversations. This is more in an employee situation.

So you want to put a correction with an employee, there’s something called 3 generous assumptions. So you say, “Look, either I haven’t trained you correctly, or I haven’t given you all the tools that you need.” Or maybe I can see it some other way. “But right now this is what I need from you. And by this time. So what do you need from me to have you fulfill on that?”

So it’ll disarm them, if you take responsibility and say, “Look, apparently I haven’t given you the training you need.” You don’t say it facetiously. You genuinely say it.

“Or I haven’t given you the tools you need. Or maybe you see it some other way and you see a better way to do it. But this is what I need by this time.”

Terces: Or “You see it a better way, enlightenment me. What is it you’re doing?”

Mark: I’m very much in line with that. Reminds me of my SEAL teammate–Jocko Willink–has this concept just called “Extreme ownership.” Very simple, but it’s that.

If you’re in charge, if it’s not working out, who’s at fault? You are. Take extreme ownership.

And it has to be either you didn’t provide the training, or you didn’t provide the resources, or the mission wasn’t communicated effectively. There’s some reason, that it failed but it’s my fault as a leader.

So you call those the 3 generous assumptions.

Matthew: And communication should be in there. Maybe it’s 4.

Terces: No. It’s 3.

Matthew: But maybe 4 is better. We’re upgrading it.

Either I haven’t communicated properly…

Terces: That would be training.

Matthew: Yeah, could be. You could put it in though. Or not.

Mark: You guys need to do a clearing here?

Terces: (laughing) So cute.

Matthew: (laughing) Always tweaking things.

Mark: All right. “So love… and I put in parentheses God… can’t fill what’s already full.” We kind of already addressed that in the terms removing the barriers. So if I’m full of all this energy and these things… this contraction that’s blocking it, then there’s no room at the end.

Terces: Yup. Or even if you look at the conversation about a very successful, high-achieving… in this case man, but could be a woman. Person. You want to look at how are they full…

Mark: Mm-hmm. Full of themselves and their success.

Terces: Right. Or full of all that they’ve achieved in life. We can be full of that. And still have a difficult time letting love in.

You’re not your achievements. We tell our chef every day, “You are not the food.” But when you’re in a restaurant business, and people criticize the food, it’s easy to take it personally. You’re not the food.

Mark: Interesting. (laughing) But you are what you eat.

Terces: (laughing) Maybe. You aren’t your achievements either. It’s an aspect of who you are, but it’s not who you are. So who are you?

Mark: Yeah, what’s really neat about this is it’s upside down world. Like, if you’re a successful CEO or in any profession. Any person.

The way to get more successful isn’t to keep doing what got you that outer success, it’s to surrender to life’s mystery, to presence. And even as a SEAL we don’t like that term “surrender,” very much. We don’t put up the white flag.

So we’re not surrendering to an enemy. We’re surrendering to a friend.

Matthew: Yeah. You’re actually surrendering the enemy.

Mark: You’re surrendering the enemy. Thank you.

Terces: The internal enemy.

Matthew: This is good. You’re not surrendering too an enemy. We’re surrendering the enemy.

Mark: Hey, we just came up with a new quote. I like that one.

Terces: Write that one down.

Mark: I’m going to write that one down.

Matthew: And how you know you’ve surrendered to the enemy is you’re moved by your life.

Mark: There’s passion and there’s freedom.

Matthew: You could ask those CEOs “When’s the last time you were really moved by yourself or others?”

That’d be another good gauge.

Mark: Interesting. All right.

You said this already, Matthew–“We’re all upsets waiting to happen.” What does that mean?

Terces: Consider we’re all just walking around looking for a place to put our upset.

Matthew: Put our story…

Mark: Put our story. To dump on someone. To project our fear…

Matthew: Whether it’s a waitress, or an employee, an employer.

We flip someone off on the highway. We’re just upsets waiting to happen.

Terces: Again, at the meeting this morning, we were talking about… we were going through being with our employees. Our advocates at Gracias Madre. And it was so great because one of our Latino employees who hosts at this restaurant. Where we deal with a lot of entitlement. We asked her, “What’s a positive way you could see people as they come into the restaurant?

And she said, “They’re all hungry.” Because people come in all upset, right? They want a particular table, they want it this way…

Mark: (laughing) They’re hangry.

Terces: They’re hungry. They’re hungry for love. They’re hungry. We could see them that way instead of like they’re mean. They’re angry. They’re selfish.

They’re hungry. Which is beautiful, right?

Matthew: But here’s the freedom. When you know people are upsets waiting to happen, then you know nothing’s personal. I’m the target for today, and my game is, you’re upset is my meditation.

So that’s the superpower. Okay great.

Mark: Where does apology come in, because that’s another one of the superpowers that is so powerful. That’s why it’s a superpower.

Terces: Well remember that apology isn’t “You’re right, I’m wrong. I’m sorry.” That’s not our definition of apology. Apology for us is “I can see that my actions or inactions had an impact on you. And I can take responsibility for that.” So it’s an act of responsibility.

And we all impact each other, all the time. And you could always apologize for an impact you had on someone.

Mark: So if I said to someone, “I’m sorry that you’re screwed up,” that’s not an effective apology.

Terces: (laughing) No, that wouldn’t work. What could you say in that situation? Let’s say you have the experience that someone screwed up. How could you take responsibility?

Mark: I think I’d bring it back to “I’m sorry I didn’t provide the conditions for success here. And that has caused a breakdown in communication. Or caused you some pain.”

Terces: Great. And then you could check in with them. “So what do you need from me? Or what haven’t I provided. Let me know what’s going on for you.”

But look at the difference. One you’re pointing the finger, and the other one you’re actually saying, “Hey, this is teamwork here. And I can see that I didn’t set you up to win.”

Mark: This is such an important issue. I think a lot of people… and we even address this at the seminar… but apology doesn’t require forgiveness, does it?

Terces: Nope.

Mark: Because a lot of people would think that it does. It seems like common knowledge. “Hey, I’m apologizing to you, so therefore you need to forgive me for my problem.”

Terces: Apology is often…

Matthew: It often happens.

Terces: It often happens, but apology is like pushing a swinging door out. Right? And when you push that swinging door out, it’ll swing back. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that it swings open the opposite way. If you apologize and somebody apologizes great. Then you have this complete… but you still got free. As soon as you apologized you got free.

Mark: It’s about you.

Matthew: Yeah. It’s about you making room so that love or God can fill that space. Because if you’re still holding on to something, or if that incompletion is taking space in your bandwidth, love can’t fill that space. So you’re doing it to free. You had impact, you want to be responsible for that impact. You want to give up that story you have that, “Oh, that person hates me,” or whatever your story is about. That incompletion.

Like you apologizing to your father, for instance. Cause that takes bandwidth of like… that whole story about your father, right? When you apologize to him, some of that story is going to disappear, and you’re going to be more available. And apology is always that way.

Because really, apology is out of integrity. You’re actually taking responsibility for some amount of integrity. Somewhere you lost the plot. Somewhere you were attentive to the whole.

Mark: Right. I don’t need my dad’s apology to be whole. I just need to let go of the thought that I need an apology. And thank him for what he did, too.

Matthew: And you can request an apology. He may give it and he may not. That may be… you have to look and see for yourself. Would that be a stretch, or would that be appropriate, or is there something in it for me asking for that apology? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Terces: And remember we talked about there’s a fine line between tools of transformation and manipulation. So if you’re doing something in “order to”–it’s manipulation. If you’re just doing something as an act of your own integrity, your own sense of responsibility, your own commitment to health and well-being–great, now it’s a tool of transformation.

Matthew: I think with your dad probably apology and acknowledgement would be the key.

Terces: Amazing.

Mark: Another great quote that really got me thinking. “Expectation sucks the joy out of life.”

Terces: So huge, right? It’s so huge.

Mark: Because it kind of speaks to non-attachment. Don’t be attached to other people’s outcomes, or even to your own outcomes.

Terces: Well remember, here’s the thing about expectations. Expectations are a trap. Because if you expect something and then you get it, all you got was your expectation fulfilled, and then you expect it again. So you’re left in expectation, not fulfillment.

If you expect something and you don’t get it, all you’re left with is an unfulfilled expectation and you’re probably irritated and upset. There’s no win.

Mark: Is expectation a form of judgement?

Terces: No. I think expectation is a form of not communicating.

Matthew: Or desire. Or attachment. I think you were right. Potential.

Terces: Desire. You want something but you’re not willing to ask for it. And usually the reason you’re not willing to ask for it is you don’t want to hear “no.” So you just expect it silently.

Mark: So in let’s say an intimate relationship, expectation of certain relations. Expectations of respect or all sorts of things that culturally or family-wise we get brought up with. Those are just little depth-charges waiting to go up.

Terces: Yup. And instead getting communication. Create and design what are going to be those agreements that you make.

Matthew: And here’s another mantra. “Ask for what you want, and be grateful for what you get.” No expectations.

Mark: (laughing) Usually isn’t what you want. More often it’s slightly different. That’s really cool. All right.

We’re running out of time, so let me… there’s a couple of gems in here I wanna check in.

This is another good one. “Love and righteousness cannot co-exist.”

Matthew: Love that one.

Mark: That’s awesome. What do we mean there? And what’s the superpower?

Terces: Well, you know, we always say righteousness or being right is like the heroin of our existence. It’s like when you be right, you’ll fight for your rightness, as opposed to love. Being kind.

Mark: So it’s better to be kind than to be right. That was your quote by the way. That was the last one I had written down here.

Terces: Better to be kind than be right. Oftentimes if you look at the people that you’re being right with, they’re people you love. So what’s the big kudo there? “Oh well, I’m right. I just made my husband, the man I chose the rest of my life with, wrong.” What’s the benefit of that?

Mark: This reminds me of the common male malady of trying to fix people. Always instead of being present and just listening, immediately going to advice.

Terces: Okay, well let’s just look at that one real quick, right? If you’re with someone who’s always giving you advice, what are they actually communicating?

Mark: I think they’re telling you you’re screwed up. Therefore you need their help. Which doesn’t feel good.

Terces: Exactly. I’m better than you. I know more than you. I have the answer to your life, I don’t know what’s wrong with you. You’re messed up.

And so what’s the quality of that relationship.

Mark: Less than.

Terces: Unless you can say to somebody, “Hey, babe, do you want to hear another idea? Want to see it another way? Do you want some feedback?”

Don’t give people feedback unless they want it. And whatever feedback you do give people, speak it in the first person so they can actually hear it. Because as soon as you start to project it out onto them, all they can do is defend and protect themselves.

Mark: So how would that sound? Again, all of this stuff has to be practiced. What would that sound like?

Terces: So speak in the first person. My experience is… or what I see… or I how I hear… or what I’m making up.

Matthew: First, would be would you like some coaching? Would be number one.

Terces: Would you like some feedback? Would you like some coaching? And speak in the first person. My experiences. What I see. This is what I’ve heard. When I tried that, this is what I found. Maybe you wanna try that.

So you want to speak it in the first person instead of telling people which builds your ego.

Matthew: And the thing about righteousness, is we get so identified with whatever. I’m a Packer fan, or I’m a Republican, or I’m a whatever. We get so righteous about our view that we get so identified. Again, love can’t fill that space because we’re identifying with some belief system or some philosophy or some sports team or whatever.

Identification is a big obstacle. And when you give up being right, you’re like giving up your identification as you know anything. It’s humbling. You’re saying, “I choose love rather than this identity.”

Mark: What are you guys most excited about? For your future, the future? And what concerns you the most?

Matthew: Oh man. I’ll start with concerns. I mean, I got some severe planetary concerns about human beings impact on the planet. Yeah. I’ve got concerns about the deficit spending of this current regime and our grandchildren are going to be paying… I don’t know… Through the nose. For our spending spree right now.

So environmentally and fiscally, got some big concerns.

What I’m most excited about is continuing to develop a model of business where love and awakening… there’s space for it at work. If we could actually… if I would leave this planet with there’s at least a conversation that in the workplace we can do some real work. Transformational work. And that’s a new conversation. I would be… I’m super-excited about that. The possibility of that.

Terces: That might even make an impact on the planet better.

Let’s see, I would say I’m most excited about just the expansion of the big love force. I’m super-excited about these super-successful men that you interface with. Because how beautiful is that to be able to have people who have quote-unquote “made it.” In the material or the physical world actually begin to have access to their hearts. And then what might they be able to do with those resources.

That might impact our planetary condition too. If we were a sharing culture, that would be a whole ‘nother world.

Matthew: And the fact that they’re being invited to their hearts by the most macho, sorry–in quotes–guy on the planet. They’re like in awe of you because of your training and so forth. And you’re the one saying, “Hey, check this out.” That’s stunning.

Terces: It’s amazing.

Matthew: There’s nobody better to invite CEOs…

Terces: To host that party.

Matthew: Yeah, to host that party than you. That’s your mission. I make up, that’s your mission.

Mark: (laughing) That’s your story. Well we’re going to make it a big party. With your help.

Terces: That’s right. Big party. I love it.

I mean, really, that’s just so exciting. I mean, there are some amazing philanthropic things happening, but just listening to your heart. Imagine if more people actually got on board with that. Then what might we be up to.

Mark: That’s how change happens. I mean, Gandhi said that. One person at a time. “Be the change you want to see.”

Terces: Imagine what we could be up to.

Mark: Right. If we weren’t spending incessant negative energy…

Terces: Yeah! If we weren’t defending and protecting and imagine what we could make our lives about. Imagine what our grandkids would come into.

There’s a lot of jobs available now that didn’t exist when I was a kid. But imagine what some of those jobs might be for my grand-children and great grand-children.

Mark: Beautiful vision. And thank you very much both of you for the work that you’re doing.

Terces: You’re so welcome. Thank you.

Mark: If everyone… I highly recommend reading “Kindred Spirits.” This is super-short, really beautiful book. It has all of these ideas we’ve talked about. Cause this is kind of the little bible. And it goes to the 10 superpowers in deep detail.

And also “Sacred Commerce.” Another great one. Really interesting for all you entrepreneurs and CEOs to think about. How can you turn your workplace into a petri dish for development? So that your workforce–your staff, employees–whatever you call them. What do you call them…?

Terces: We call them advocates.

Mark: Advocates. That’s cool. So that your advocates can grow just being part of your culture.

Terces: One of your products.

Mark: What a cool thing that is.

Matthew: Developing human beings at work.

Mark: And then you also run some private training? Or some group training?

Terces: We do. We do groups. We have a farm here in California that we’re opening up this year. Our website’s almost done. I just worked on it this morning.

Mark: Do you know what the URL will be when it’s done?

Terces: Yeah.

Mark: So go to… give it 2 months.

Terces: Oh no, no. It’s just like a week away. We’re real close.

Mark: And where else can people find you. Do you do social media or anything like that?

Matthew: Yeah, we she has…

Terces: My first name Terces. I have Instagram and Facebook.

Mark: “Secret” spelled backwards. And then our emails are our first names at

Mark: Wow, that’s bold. My email is [email protected].

Matthew: (laughing) That’s funny.

Mark: (laughing) All right, thank you so much guys. You’ve been awesome. You guys rock. I appreciate it.

All right, folks. You heard it. Matthew and Terces Engelhart. Cafe Gratitude. Authors of “Kindred Spirits,” “Sacred Commerce.” Doing great work in the world.

And we’re going to do a seminar or workshop with you guys this year. That’s my commitment.

Matthew: In this county?

Mark: Either on the farm or down here.

Matthew: Oh, great.

Terces: It’s great at the farm.

Matthew: Oh, you mean these guys.

Mark: Yeah. Our staff.

Matthew: Far out. Yeah.

Mark: I haven’t told them yet, but I just told them.

All right folks, train hard, stay focused, be unbeatable. See you next time.


Matthew and Terces: Hooyah!

Mark: Hooyah!

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