“I truly believe that there’s nothing that we cannot do as humans if we’re willing to put in the work, to pursue it and to make it a reality.”- Ryan Munsey
Dr. Parsley’s sleep remedy was designed to help Navy SEALs to overcome some of the sleep challenges that they have as hard-charging individuals. Doc Parsley believes that proper sleep and recovery is absolutely essential to maintain our ability to perform at a high level. His sleep “cocktail” includes a number of supplements to provide our bodies with chemicals naturally produced by the brain to encourage sleep. Commander Divine is a huge fan and encourages members his tribe to try it out for themselves. Enter “unbeatablemind” at the checkout on www.docparsley.com to get 10% off.
Ryan Munsey (@ryanmunsey) is well-known as an expert in the wellness and personal development space, a podcaster and he was also one of the first participants in the SEALFIT 20X experience. He has recently written a book called “F*ck Your Feelings: Master Your Mind, Accomplish Anything and Become a More Significant Human.” He and Mark discuss how to control your emotions so that you can make better decisions.
- Every feeling is biased. So while they have to be recognized, you shouldn’t let them run you.
- Big decisions are the easy ones. But little decisions are harder and often make the difference.
- It is the processes you engage in that get results. Not people.
Listen to this episode to get a better understanding of the mental and habitual “grooves” that we get into and how we can start to break free of them.
PowerDot is an electrical stimulation device that allows you to increase performance, speed up recovery and overall achieve a deeper mind/body connection. They put professional level physical therapy in your hands easily and inexpensively. It is a system that Mark uses extensively, and they’ve just come out with version 2.0. It is now even better and less expensive than the version that the Commander uses.
PowerDot loves the SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mission, and have generously offered the tribe 10% off to try the new device. You can check it out at powerdot.com–use the code “UnbeatableMind” at checkout and receive 10% off one of Mark’s favorite tools for achieving increased muscle performance and recovery.
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Hey folks, welcome back to the Unbeatable Mind podcast. My name is Mark Divine, and I’m super stoked that you’re here today. As you know I do not take your time for granted, because you’ve got a billion things to pay attention to. Right now, this is the most important thing so pay attention.
My guest today is Ryan Munsey. I’ll introduce him in a little bit more in a bit, but before I do, let me remind you that our Unbeatable Mind summit is coming up November 29th…? Geoff is that right…? 29th, yeah, to the 2nd of December. It’s in Carlsbad, California. This is the 6th time we’ve run it. It’s three days of unbelievable, Unbeatable Mind training with some great speakers. And you’ll be hooked up with a boat crew and a tribe. And you will design your five mountain training plan for 2019. So that next year you can kick ass and take names.
I mentioned last time I said this, but it’s the last time we’re gonna run the summit. Probably ever. We’re shifting our format next year to more the academy. So we can go deep with you all. But the summit–we love the summit—it’s just not going to fit on our roster anymore. So if you’ve heard about it, and you want to do it, this is your last chance. We have a few slots yet left.
And you can take advantage of a 300 dollar discount since you’re listening to this and on the code pod 300. If you check out at summit.unbeatablemind.com.
And quick update on the Burpees for Vets. So now my foot is really broken-broken. Not just fake broken. I’ll be going to the orthopedics tomorrow. Probably getting surgery, but it’s not going to slow me down. I just have to figure out a little might be slightly more modified modification. Like a double modification.
This morning I did six hundred push-ups and it worked. Didn’t quite feel like a burpee though. Feels like 600 push-ups, you know? So I’ll figure something else out. But I’m not gonna fall behind. Even with a broken foot. Screw that, right?
Ryan Munsey. Right. Absolutely.
Mark: Alright like I said–Burpees for Vets–we’re doing 22 million burpees this year to raise money and awareness for veterans who are suffering from post-traumatic stress. These guys and gals have suffered mightily for us so we can suffer a little bit them. Go to burpeesforvets.com to either donate or just to learn more. Or to join my team, or to sponsor me. I’m doing a hundred thousand burpees this year. There’s a bunch of other guys–or teams–who are beating that.
And we’re gonna go for a world record attempt burpees–most burpees done by a six person mixed team on Veterans Day. So maybe you can jump in on that.
At any rate, it’s an important cause, so check it out–burpeesforvets.com.
All right now let’s cut to the chase. Ryan Munsey, thank you for joining me today. All the way from Virginia?
Ryan: Yes sir. Thanks for having me.
Mark: Pleasure. Ryan you’re a high performance coach, consultant… You’ve got a couple awesome podcasts… Well one awesome podcast, I remember your other one but we talked about that. Was it “better sex” or something like that?
Ryan: Something like that.
Mark: Okay, nutrition company. We’re gonna start it. “Optimal sex nutrition” or something like that.
Anyways, now he runs the “Better Human Project.”
Ryan: That’s correct.
Mark: And I read your book about emotional control–emotional development. The title is of course what drove me to it. “F*ck Your Feelings.” thought that was really interesting. So I’m looking forward to learning about that. How do we fuck our feelings? So you’ve got a degree…
We’re already off to a rocking start here. My broken foot is definitely causing my brain to do weird things today. Anyways…
A degree in human nutrition and food science from Clemson. And you run a gym in all your spare time, called the “House of Strength.” cool name.
Ryan: Thank you.
Mark: And you’re getting into speaking and all sorts of cool stuff, Ryan: So we got a lot to talk about. I think we have a lot of similarities in our approach to life.
Ryan: I think we do.
Mark: So I always ask my guests, what made you unbeatable? Like, what were the early influences? You’re a pretty young guy, but like when you were a kid, did you have a mentor? Were your parents kind of like a guiding force? Or were they basically an obstacle like mine were?
I hope they’re not listening to this. I don’t think they’ve ever listened to my podcast, but… I think I’m safe there.
Ryan: That’s one of those times that you pray your parents don’t know how to find a podcast app on the smartphone?
Mark: They don’t even know how to find their smartphone. Anyways, what were the major influences in your life at a young age that kind of helped shape who you are today?
Ryan: I think it’s one of those things where only upon reflection do we kind of figure out what those moments were. You know, as a child you don’t… Or as a youngster, you don’t really understand what’s shaping you as it is shaping you. But hands down being an athlete and playing sports as a child.
Mark: What sports did you play?
Ryan: I played anything that had a ball. Basketball, baseball, soccer… And I actually played soccer and basketball all the way through high school. Until I got to college.
Mark: So synchronized swimming was out?
Ryan: Synchronized swimming was out.
Mark: Figure skating?
Ryan: No, no. No ice sports for me. But I wasn’t good enough to play d1 at Clemson obviously they’ve got some incredible athletes…
Mark: Clemson’s a big school, yeah.
Ryan: It is. And you know I think one of the other lessons that I’m realizing in my later years is something from my both of my parents. I remember, my mom used to work an hour away. You know, so she would get up in the morning and drive an hour and go to work and then come home… Drive an hour home and then drive me to maybe soccer practice across town for travel soccer team.
And as a kid you don’t necessarily realize the sacrifices that your parents are making for you to do these things. But as you look back, you can see the sacrifice that they’re willing to do to give you the life that they want you to have.
You know, my dad… Never so much in words… But in his actions always showed me how to show up and be there for the people who matter most.
Mark: Through his example? He did that for other people?
Ryan: Yeah. And for us. For my mom, for me… So those were things that really made impressions on me…
Mark: Isn’t that interesting that we take that stuff for granted as kids? I really remember I had the same kind of insight like how much time my mom spent just schlepping me to swim practice or to soccer or to skiing. Every single weekend, we drove an hour to ski in the winter time. And we were on the ski team.
None of this would have happened… If my dad was in charge none of that would happen because he was not an athlete in that regard. But she drug him to get him outside
Ryan: Yeah, and I think those were things that set the stage for us to be grateful and understand sacrifice and showing up. And then you ask about mentors, I don’t know… Again looking back all of the youth coaches. I think about how much time they donated to be a coach. The parents…
Mark: Either free or paid a paltry sum right?
Ryan: Right, right.
Mark: Amazing service.
Ryan: And then once I started my gym in 2012, I joined a mastermind and basically hired a business coach. And this is a man that you know well, Paul Reddick.
Mark: Oh, Paul’s great
Ryan: And Paul… Aside from my dad, he’s the single most influential individual in my life. So and then he quickly started interacting with you. And then actually it’s six years ago this month we got to do…
Mark: Did you the 20x?
Ryan: We did the 20x. We were the first ones outside of California. In New Jersey.
Mark: With Zak Avinash.
Ryan: The 7 of us. Absolutely.
Mark: Great! You were one of the seven.
Ryan: One of the seven. So that was…
Mark: I’ve heard some epic stories about that.
Ryan: That was an epic, epic day…
Mark: Quattro-Deuce was there and Brad Macleod.
Mark: Who else was there?
Ryan: That was it. It was just the two guys. The two of them and the seven of us.
Mark: Well those guys can pack a mean punch.
Ryan: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. That was a life-changing experience.
Mark: I was a full twelve hours on the beach, in the cold ocean.
Mark: Wet and sandy.
Ryan: Absolutely. Sugar cookies. No-handed burpees. And actually had a flashback…
Mark: Hands-in-your-pocket burpees.
Ryan: When you were talking about finding a way to do burpees with your broken foot, I’m like “well if I can find a way to do them without hands, you can find a way without feet.”
Mark: Right. You had no sympathy there did you? Not at all. Compliments of SEALFIT, of course.
Ryan: Complements of SEALFIT. So I think some of those things really… The early stuff set the foundation and then the exposure to men like Paul and yourself–your works, your writing–and then guys like QD and Brad Macleod… You know, I’ve been very fortunate to be around a lot of individuals who embody that mindset. And I’ve always been the type of person who looks for…
There’s a quote that I love that “success leaves footprints,” right? So I’ve always been very analytical. I want to look at people who have been successful in different aspects of life. Different domains. And looking for the commonalities, not the differences.
And I think–like I said–being surrounded by a lot of people with your values and those types of mindsets. It’s something that you know I said just kind of could tell that that was the thing that I was missing to be able to move into the version of me that I wanted to be.
Mark: Yeah. What do you do now for like serious growth? You know, and let me contextualize this a little bit, cause that… You’re how old like right now?
Mark: Oh, 34. Yeah, you look 28.
Ryan: It’s all that anti-aging stuff.
Mark: Must be the ketones and stuff like that. Or maybe it was the 20x that just paused you for about 10 years.
Ryan: That’s right.
Mark: It has it effect. I’m 55, right? And I was a navy seal for 20 years I built five or six businesses blah-blah-blah. People know my resume.
And so this podcast is just for fun. For me to talk to people that are really… You know, to share ideas with people who care about the future, and about health, and about how do we optimize ourselves? And how do we actually upgrade ourselves as humans through my program and Unbeatable Mind. And I’ve been doing it now only for about four years…? Geoff maybe…? I think we’re going on five million downloads it’s about maybe three and a half years.
And when I started podcasting was still pretty new. And now I see everybody jumping on the bandwagon right? And one of the challenges I have–and I’m not putting you in this category I just want to see your response to this–one of the challenges I have is a lot of people want to go from zero to hero who are in their 20s and 30s. They just assume “okay the information is there. I can read this information and I can you know study these people like Mark Divine and then I’ll start my own podcast. Because I got a lot to say.” but maybe didn’t necessarily have the dirt time right? And so there’s a lot of noise, there’s a lot of Ryan Munsey’s out there right now. So how do you see yourself–two parts of this question–how do you see yourself getting like the serious, no shit life experiences that people need for the credibility, authenticity, and so you can actually speak from your heart, so to speak.
And 2 is how do you rise above the noise? From all the other people who want to go from zero to hero and podcasting and in this whole space of human performance and peak performance and whatnot?
Ryan: I love that question. There’s so many different kind of jumping-off points that we can take and go and probably fill the next hour talking about some of the points that you’re touching on there.
First of all, my father has a really close friend–my dad went to VMI. Virginia Military.
Mark: My friend is the cadet commandant out there or whatever you call it right? Gene Peluso. Retired navy seal captain. He runs the whole place–he’s not the president, but he’s the military leader
Mark: Great guy.
Ryan: So my father had a close friend from high school who went to…
Mark: I’m sorry now he’s citadel. Shoot. Told you my brain was playing tricks on me today Citadel and VMI are like rivals, aren’t they…?
Ryan: Yeah absolutely. And so this this friend of his is an author. His name is Roland Lazenby. And he writes about the NBA. He’s followed Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and then Jordan and then his last two are Kobe and LeBron.
He gave me some advice when I first started my gym in 2012. And he said “you know, what you need to do is become the conduit for people looking for information in your field.” and this is sort of what Roland did with himself and the NBA. So if Fox or if ESPN or anybody else needs a sound bite for the NBA, they contact Roland. And it took me several years… He actually told me that probably two years before the advice really clicked for me. And the time that it clicked is when I realized “hey all these guys who are doing podcasts the Tim Ferriss, the Joe Rogans, Dave Aspreys at the time that’s who I was listening to.
Because when I started my gym I realized I needed to stop reading about or learning about sets and reps. And I needed to learn all of the other parts of running a successful business. And you’re smiling, because you realize you know a personal trainer can’t run a business you have to become a truly a businessman and understand all of those other things.
Mark: It’s why most CrossFit gyms are failing these days.
Ryan: Absolutely. So what I quickly realized was that not only could I listen to other people having these conversations. But that I could take Roland’s advice start a podcast where I could seek out the people that I wanted to learn from. Have those conversations. I could learn and simultaneously share that as content so that other people could learn.
Mark: So you look at the podcasts itself as a learning vehicle.
Ryan: I am not the star of our podcast. I am the person who is trying to learn from the greatest people that I can reach. And I think that’s one of the things that maybe makes my approach to podcasting different from some of these others. Because I understand completely what you’re saying, where everybody’s starting a podcast now because that’s the thing to do right?
Mark: Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve reflected on this. Like, I consider myself an expert in whatever it is I do. Which is integrated human development. Most experts don’t actually have a podcast, because they’re too busy being an expert. And I’ve really struggled with that. I was like “what does this mean?”
But I actually like being both. Like, I’m a weird guy. I like that. I like being an expert, but I also like being a platform for other experts. And so I could see how over a number of years as you’re a platform for experts and you keep diving into that more specific niche that you’re passionate about, then you’ll be both. You’ll be an expert and a platform, as well.
Do you have that vision? P
Ryan: Absolutely and that’s one of the things that we’ve been talking about with “better human project” is how do we continue to expand these conversations?
So you mentioned the previous podcast “the optimal performance podcast” and everything had to always come back to…
Mark: I thought it was optimal sex.
Ryan: Well that might be one area of performance.
Mark: Oh wait. No there’s a nutrition company.
Ryan: It was sponsored by natural stacks and so now being able to expand and have conversations with a wider group of people about a wider range of topics, because performance is only one aspect of being the fully developed and evolved human that we want to be right? So we can talk about relationships and communications, leadership…
Mark: Emotions, maybe?
Ryan: Emotions right so or business you know
Mark: Fuck emotions.
Ryan: Right absolutely.
Mark: They just get in the way.
Ryan: They do. They cloud our judgment.
Mark: I’m getting you right now. Completely taking you off-track and you’re like “damn it.”
Ryan: No, I can right back into it. Playing Jedi mind tricks with the master. You’re the master, not me.
Mark: Master of disaster.
Ryan: Depends on which side of the wire you’re on right?
Mark: True that.
Ryan: So I think–and to your point earlier about you know trying to go zero to hero–I think that was a mistake I made… I’m guilty of making that mistake with the gym. I started it in 2012 I don’t have it anymore. I sold it at the end of 2015.
Mark: Mm-hmm. You found it restrictive? Or just not the path you wanted to go down.
Ryan: There were a few reasons. Not the path that I wanted to continue to go down. We were also at the time, my girlfriend then became my fiancée. She’s now my wife.
But our career trajectories, we knew that we were going to be leaving the area. And I wasn’t going to be in a situation where I was gonna have a brick-and-mortar gym in that town.
Mark: Good thing that you were able to sell it though.
Ryan: So we did that and I think the mistake I made there was really trying to be a hero, if you will, in the strength & conditioning space. Trying to make a name for yourself. And I think it’s because that industry, like many others, is very competitive and there’s a lot of elbowing and shouldering and trying to get to a certain level. And being able to you know build a following…
Mark: It’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff for the individual customer, as well.
Ryan: It is. It is. And so I think if I’m guilty of trying to do the zero to hero thing at all it would be in that space and in that pursuit. But I never looked at the podcast as a like, “I’m a hero. Come listen to me.”
It was always the discovery. And to your point about how do you seek growth–I think I’m very lucky that my personality is one where I’m very easily bored. And I’m also very curious. So I’m constantly trying to learn new things.
I also have that personality where when I see something that I don’t have the ability to do. I want to be able to do that. If I watch CrossFit games and there’s a move that I don’t have in my arsenal, I want to add that. I want to be able to do that.
If I see somebody doing something in business that is a skill set that I don’t have, I want to add that. I just hate being that… I hate seeing something and not being able to do it. So I think…
Mark: What can’t you do?
Ryan: Well there’s a lot I can’t do
Mark: What won’t you do?
Ryan: That’s a better question. So you’re laughing, you remember this from the book, right? The rule is… We had this rule at the gym… You’re not allowed to say “I can’t” right? And the penalty for this was everybody in the facility had to drop and do ten no-handed burpees. Mark: Perfect.
Ryan: And that came from my experience at SEALFIT and it was behavior modification therapy to try to teach people to say you know “I’m not yet able to do muscle up right? Instead of saying “I can’t do them.” I actually caught Brian doing that yesterday. He was saying something and I corrected him…
Mark: Did you do the burpees?
Ryan: He actually did cause…
Mark: You could start right now if you like. I got plenty of room here. There he goes. Supposed to be no-hand burpees, by the way.
Ryan: Well we’ll do it in an instructional on those after the show.
Brian. He won’t eat vegetables.
Ryan: But I think… I do eat vegetables. I just had some avocados on the way here. I did the carnivore diet experiment last year, and now everybody thinks that I don’t eat vegetables.
Mark: That’s funny. That’s an interesting diet.
By the way, I was with Greg Amundsen yesterday you just mentioned him and we did our 300 modified burpees. The ones they have six hundred push-ups. We had a blast and then I offered him an ample. And he says no I’m only eating whole foods. And I’m like this is whole foods it’s just in little tiny pieces.
Ryan: Pureed. Added to water and pureed.
Mark: Does that not make it whole foods? I’m kind of confused about that. The ingredients are whole foods.
Anyways. A little tangent there. Anytime we go down in a rabbit-hole feel free to drag me out of it, you know?
Ryan: Okay, okay. Well so back to your question of you know “can’t” and “won’t.” I mean, there are a lot of things that I don’t currently have the ability to do. I think something that I won’t do–and back to that analogy is… To say I can’t, is to sort of let ourselves off the hook because what we’re really saying when we say I can’t is…
Mark: I choose not to.
Ryan: Or I won’t do what is necessary to fill in the blank right? I can’t do a muscle-up at this time because I haven’t done the work needed to get to that.
Mark or I’ve simply chosen not to.
Ryan: Exactly. And there’s a difference. When we can admit to ourselves that we’re choosing not to do something, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But it is also very liberating and very powerful to understand that I have chosen not to do this. That I’m not a victim.
Mark: Psychology’s done studies on the power of language right? That word “can’t” does block people off from even trying. And you’re gonna be much more successful to any goal if you just change language. And say I will go to the gym three times this week. Right, right. Instead of you know “I hope” or “I want to.” simple words.
Ryan: Yeah. The person that says “I can’t lose weight.” well I bet if we really examined what’s going on, you know, your life is perfectly designed for the results you’re currently getting. Something that Paul Reddick has told both of us. The reason that you “can’t” lose weight is that you haven’t yet done the things that are required to do…
Mark: You haven’t chosen to do the things that are required…
Ryan: Right, right. And so to that end I think…. I truly believe that there’s nothing that we cannot do as humans if we’re willing to put in the work, to pursue it and to make it a reality. And I think what I won’t do is I won’t allow myself to… Where I refuse to accept living small and not striving to reach for whatever it is.
Mark: But to be fair there’s a narrow range of things that we can master or they can get good at or we can even play in. So how do you think for the average listeners an individual can zero in on that which it is that they’re supposed to do? I call this your three Ps–your passion, purpose and principles in life–that are gonna guide your choices like that? What’s your view on that? How do people make choices, good choices?
Ryan: Yeah. You’re right. I mean, I think if we zoom as far out as we can on that, I think it comes down to first defining your values, right? So you have had some success in business. If you look at any business venture, a business has to sort of define what it is, what it does, and more specifically what it doesn’t do. What it stands for, what are the values of this business.
And the more clear you can get on those things in business, the greater your odds of success. What fascinates me is that as individuals, we don’t do that. We’re not taught to do that, and very few people do that. Very few people can clearly tell you what their values are. What they stand for. What they don’t stand for.
And I think if we can reflect on that and sort of…
Mark: How do we find out what our values are?
Ryan: We just have to… You need time. You can’t constantly be scrolling, looking for distractions. And, you know, we live in a world of mass distraction right now. So to me, the easiest way to do that is whatever your thing is that you like to pursue for reflection–whether it’s hiking or camping or
Mark: To take a look at what you love to do when you’re not distracted. When you have all the time in the world if you had all the time in the world.
Ryan: Right then go and do that. And in those moments ask yourself those questions who am I? What do I stand for? If I were to build a team, what would that team look like? And what are their values? What is important to me? I’m starting to kind of reverse engineer this thing and say what is the legacy that I want to leave? What do I want people to say about me? What are the words that I want people to think of when they think of me?
Mark: So what are your…? If you could articulate your top five values? The guiding principles for your life, what would they be?
Or top three? Don’t want to make it too hard for you.
Ryan: Okay. So one of the exercises that I like to lead people through, that I work with is to actually pull out their cell phone and write those words down. And then create an alarm on their phone so that that alarm goes off every single day.
Mark: (laughing) isn’t that going to be distracting?
Ryan: Not if it serves as a reminder.
Mark: Why not put it in a journal?
Ryan: You could, but then you have to go to the journal and you have to go find that…
Mark: You’re saying use your phone as your journal.
Ryan: Use the phone as a way to… It reminds you. Or if you have like a smartwatch it could be a smartwatch that just reminds you.
Mark: So get reminded for you to look at the value and reflect upon it.
Ryan: It doesn’t even have to be a reminder to look at it. So the alarm pops up and it just asks a question. It says “am I being that person?” and then after the question mark it lists those words so I’ve gone through, I’ve done the reflection. I’ve figured out what those words are. And for me the three words that show up are “fearless leader” and “reliable.” and if I can get a check in with those and say am I conducting myself in this way, every day, then I know that I am probably moving the chains on the things that are most important to me.
Mark: So fearless, reliable and being a leader. Okay. And you’ve got some sort of mental representation of what each of those looks like in your life. Actions that support fearlessness. And don’t support fearlessness. Those types of things?
Ryan: Right. Well like you’ve been kind of alluding to, I mean, the book is called “Fuck your Feelings” so you know my wife tells me all the time you know “you’re so fearless, you’re so fearless.”
That’s not true. I’m scared shitless about half the stuff I do. But I do it anyway.
Mark: Mmm-hmm. So let’s talk about fear then. What is fear?
Ryan: So this is a question I love answering, because it’s something that I’ve studied and it’s in the book as well. There’s a huge difference between fear and anxiety. Fear is the presence of a threat. And anxiety is the anticipation of the threat, but the threat is not actually present.
I think it’s critically important for folks to understand the difference between the two.
Mark: Mm-hmm. So fear is acute. Anxiety’s more of a long-term, low-grade, experience right?
Ryan: And it’s also…
Mark: Chronic would be the way of saying that medicinally.
Ryan: Right, right. But also to say it’s not real it is not an accurate statement. Because it is real. We are experiencing it. But the threat isn’t real. We in that instance of anxiety, are in total control of what we’re telling ourselves. So, you know, if we’re walking through the woods and somebody says like “I have a fear of snakes” like or, you know, have a fear that there will be a snake in the path that’s actually anxiety. It’s not fear until there’s actually a snake in the path.
Mark: I like that some people are just fearful of any type of potential harm, you know? For their kids, for themselves. Fearful of going outside when it’s, you know, thunderstorm fearful… And that creates anxiety. Which is very different than standing on the edge of a cliff and going “holy shit. I’m gonna jump off this thing. And if this rip cord doesn’t work, you know, I’m dead. That’s real fear.
Ryan: It is and what’s critically important to understand about what we’re talking about is that if we understand our biology, we understand that these feelings are what kept humans alive for thousands of years. Or however long we’ve been on this planet. That wiring is what kept us alive. And our modern world has evolved so quickly that our biology has not caught up with it. So we still have a lot of primitive wiring, a lot of primitive systems. That if we don’t understand them and try to use them to our advantage, they could be–I don’t want to say they’re ill-equipped for our modern world–but they could lead us like you said to have chronic anxiety over things that we don’t necessarily need to be anxious about right now.
Mark: Yeah, I would almost push back on that and say our biology is just fine. It’s actually there’s nothing wrong with it. It doesn’t need to catch up to anything. Biology’s working fine. It’s the psychology, and the education around how to use the biology. How to organize your thoughts. How to breathe properly, you know. How to basically compartmentalize. How to face down fear.
And this stuff is–as you know–it’s really not that hard. It’s a pretty mark one. But it’s not taught, and most people don’t understand it.
Mark: I think something wrote a book about that. It’s Unbeatable Mind or something like that.
Ryan: Yeah, there’s no user’s manual given to us in school. Which is why books like yours are so valuable. Because–you’re right–there’s nothing wrong with our biology. I mean evolution doesn’t make mistakes…
Mark: Until we augment it with AI and, you know, robotics. Which is coming. Which I don’t think is gonna end very well, personally. I think what we have is pretty damn good.
Ryan: We just have to understand how it’s set up to work, so that we can make sure that it’s working to our advantage. Not to a disadvantage.
Mark: Right. Do you really believe that we should fuck our emotions? Or should we really start to work with them? And maybe pay attention to them a little bit more closely? It’s just a provocative title.
Ryan: It’s a provocative title. And, you know, there are a lot of books on bookshelves…
Mark: If you put that word in the title, are you guaranteed to get some sales? I thought about that and like that’s probably not my style. People might take the wrong way. Fuck Unbeatable Mind. (laughing)
Ryan: Yeah it certainly gets people to stop in their tracks. You know, if you’re scrolling through amazon or if you’re walking through a bookstore. I mean the idea is that it stands out, right?
Mark: And to be fair, you didn’t put the “u” and the “c” in right? You just put a star…
Ryan: There’s an asterisk instead of the “u.” but the “f,” “c” and “k” are…
Mark: Pretty easy to figure out.
Ryan: It’s pretty easy to figure out. Nobody has a hard time verbalizing what the title is. They don’t say “Fick” your emotions
Ryan: No they don’t. No, I don’t think–so you know, all of our, again… The book is basically a neuroscience explanation or exploration of why some people succeed and other people don’t. I’ve been able to interview and work with neuroscientists and researchers on the quote/unquote “theory” side. And then I’ve been able to work with a lot of people–you know, people in your line of work. People who are Olympic athletes. And sort of marry the theory and the application.
What’s going on with the science? And then the people who are actually having success–what are they doing? And what I found is that on the academic side of things, evolution doesn’t make mistakes, you know. We have these things in place, so feelings are basically a red flag to direct our attention towards something. And as we were just saying if we’re distracted or if we’re not equipped to dive into them and figure out what they are, then we may misinterpret that. Or miss the signal altogether.
So it’s really it’s about understanding our biology. Understanding how we’re wired. You can’t master something that you don’t understand. You can’t guide something that you don’t understand, right? So if we are to guide our lives where we ultimately want to get them, we have to understand you know the operating system that we have.
And the reason for the title, obviously, the provocative side. There’s a statistic from Antonio Damasio, who is a cognitive neuroscientist–found that 95 percent of our decisions are made based on how we feel in any given moment.
Mark: And how did he figure that out? Sounds kind of arbitrary. I’m not disagreeing. I know it’s a lot. But I don’t think you could possibly say 95 percent with certainty.
Ryan: I’m not sure how 95 percent statistic came. But I know that he had a few patients that had either injuries or something that happened in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. It’s a region of the brain that is associated with the ability to assign good or bad to the decision-making matrix.
So one of his first patients was this guy named Elliott. And after this surgery–I think he had a tumor and it was removed–and in the removal of the tumor there was damage done to that portion of his brain. And this guy maintained all of his intelligence. He was like in the upper percentages of intelligence. And successful father and businessman, whatever.
But after this injury, he was unable to make simple decisions. Even something like where to go eat for lunch. And so what would happen is he would get stuck in these endless loops.
And when we make a decision, there’s a lot of micro-decisions involved. So if we said “where are we gonna go for lunch?” a few of the things that we have to decide are you know “how much time do we have? What are the time constraints on this thing? Are we driving? Are we walking? How many people are coming? Does anybody have restrictions dietary wise?”
All of these things. And without the ability to assign good or bad to any of these, he could never make that simple decision of where to go or what to order or things like that…
Mark: And are you suggesting that this assigning of good and bad is an emotional process?
Ryan: I’m not the neuroscientist…
Mark: And that’s largely subconscious too, isn’t it?
Ryan: Again, that’s part of why I say your fuck your feelings, because if you are somebody who says “this is where I want to get with my life.” I’m sure that in your experience you’ve seen plenty of people who say they want to accomplish something, but their actions between saying it and achieving it aren’t always aligned with the act of achieving it. Because when faced with those choices along the way, they choose immediate comfort or immediate security.
Mark: Sure. It’s interesting. I mean, again I’m not pushing back on you at all, but I think generally a lot of researchers kind of mistake biased processing of our whole-mind system for emotions right? And it’s partly this western need we have to kind of parse everything into a…
Mark: Binary bucket, right? I like that term. So it’s either a thought or it’s an emotion. What if they’re the same thing? In my world, they’re the same thing. Thoughts and emotions are the same. They’re really just processed or experienced differently by the brain.
Subconscious thoughts can be made conscious, so you can become you can overcome biases by objectifying the bias and paying attention to what your relationship to it is. And then change it.
And then furthermore, by understanding the different aspects of your brain-mind system to include like your enteric nervous system. The vagal response you know and how it works with the heart and the belly. The heart as a brain, right? The neurological processing power of the heart. And begin to understand how these aspects of your mind-system signal your brain to make meaning. Or to understand the information that is being sent up either the central nervous system, or the enteric nervous system. Or the peripheral nervous system.
And all this is not rocket science, but it’s like brand-new, it seems like, for most people. And we’re still working on this kind of industrial age paradigm that thoughts and emotions are two separate things.
So I think that we need to change the dialogue about this and this is a good place to start doing that. Like a thought is a cognized, in your rational mind, linked together either decision or internal dialogue. And that’s what we think of a thought is.
Or it’s an image, right? That then we try to make meaning of. And then we’ll articulate in some sort of dialogue a strung together symbolic language.
Or it’s a felt sensation. Felt sensations really will come from either your peripheral nervous system, your enteric nervous system, your heart or your central nervous system. It’s just another thought. Not unlike an image that’s coming from part of your mind. That then has to be cognized and meaning made of it, by your rational mind. That’s what emotions are to me.
So to think that emotions aren’t thought is just… That’s all, I mean the simplest way to say it is thought…
Ryan: Well, from a neuroscience standpoint, they’re separate things. From a neuroscience standpoint, emotions are–as you said–signals from the outside in the peripheral nervous system is sensing something and channeling information to the hub–our brain. A thought is inherently devoid of meaning. Again like Elliot–this guy that was Dimaggio’s patient had to assign meaning good or bad, before they could make the choice. And you know we can have a thought and say you know all that tire is black. There’s no emotion in that.
An emotion is some sort of–like I said–it’s information gathered from our external environment and centralized and then to take it one step further, it is a physiological experience. And then the next step up from that–again defined by neuroscientists–is the feeling.
The feeling is the mental state that is caused by the physiological state. And so feelings and emotions or separate entities. Thoughts are also separate from both of those. They’re all interrelated, they all impact each other. But they’re not the same physiological experience.
Mark: Yeah and you’re saying this from the context of neuroscience as it understands that. I’m approaching it from a different angle. And saying that neuroscience has a limited definition. And one of the things you just said is actually kind of proving my point. It’s like not all feelings or emotions come from external, and when I say external, I mean external to the body, right?
Because we store emotions. We store feelings. And so they’re actually internal. So you could have an internally triggered… You can have an emotion that’s triggered by a thought. Obviously, that happens all the time. Or by imagery. It could be triggered by external like another person…
Ryan: And part of that is the way memories are stored. Memories are stored as event plus emotion. There’s always an emotional attachment to memory.
Mark: Typically or else we won’t remember it. We remember things that have feelings associated…
Ryan: Right. And the more emotion is around that certain event, right the more easily it is remembered and recalled.
Mark: Yeah, but I guess where I’m going is that ultimately it’s just energy and information. And our body is a mind. This is where I’m going with this–our body is the mind, not just the brain. And so energy is stored experienced as feeling. Energy is stored and experienced as a thought.
And then the meaning is basically our capacity of our brain and the skillfulness that we have based upon the contextual paradigm of our upbringing and our… And even some epigenetics to kind of like pull it all together so that we can live a life that is, you know, sane.
Ryan: Right. And that’s the point is for people to understand that these things are wired into us. That it’s not… So, for example if you are the person that says like “why can’t I walk past the cookie window at whole foods without buying cookies?” right? There’s primitive wiring in there–that’s the limbic system that’s you know having that emotional response. That is so much faster than the rational brain. That says “oh, but wait, I don’t eat gluten.” or “oh, but wait I’m on a diet.” or whatever the thing is right?
But that secondary response is always slower and that’s just one example. But again, like I want people to understand that these thoughts, emotions, feelings, whatever. We need to be able to dive in and identify what’s going on and be able to separate them from who we are as people so that we can make informed choices that are in line with our values not our current feelings.
System One and System Two
Mark: One of the things that I think is most promising, instead of like the neuroscience approach that separates feelings, emotions, and thoughts. Would be more like the Kahneman approach–Daniel Kahneman who is Nobel prize-winning theorist basically–in his book “Thinking Fast and Slow” just separated thinking into cognition, which is system two, and everything else which is system one. Everything else is like everything that’s happening below the surface. And understanding that system one is always going to be making the decisions. And until you make a choice to pause and let system two kind of grind on something, or to slow the process down and to make a more methodical decision. And I mean that’s one where we create the meaning around that.
So system the system one mind really is the whole sum total of everything that’s happening below the radar of our conscious mind. It includes thoughts, feelings, emotions, the enteric nervous system–everything that I just mentioned before.
And then so that leads to the study of bias. Like, what are these things…? How do we detect the patterns? And you could call them emotional patterns, but just the patterns of subterranean thought, that drive behavior unconsciously or subconsciously or reactionary. Right? Which are causing really poor decisions in most people’s lives.
And all those they’re have literally been hundreds of biases that have been identified right? Now the obvious ones being like confirmation bias and loss aversion bias and some of the stuff–I addressed it and I think you probably even addressed a little bit in your book. Addressed it to some degree in “Unbeatable Mind.”
So that’s to me another fascinating way and simple, and practical way to kind of come at this. Because it’s really hard for the average person to separate thoughts, feelings, and emotions, you know? Maybe that’s why fucking emotions is not a bad idea, because it’s almost a fruitless endeavor to try to study emotions for most people. The whole realm of therapy gets into that, but if we could just study what caused these biases in us. That cause us to be a certain way or think a certain way, then that would be very practical, very useful. Don’t you think?
Ryan: There’s certainly extreme value and I would say that it’s crucial to try to identify for each of us what those past experiences are. Or life experiences. Whatever those biases are.
When you ask me, my immediate thought goes to what is my perspective on the world and my world view and who I am. I mean, you know, if I am a white male from middle-class America I have a different bias…
Mark: Yeah, we call that background of obviousness in Unbeatable Mind. It’s like obvious to everyone else, but not to ourselves. Which makes us biased. And so it’s like the whole #MeToo movement or the black lives matter–those are great examples of organizations or movements trying to point out literally like extreme bias just by who you are how you’re brought up. Your race, your color, your sex, all that stuff…
Ryan: Absolutely and again sort of like we said earlier with identifying your values as an individual, also being aware of what your perspective is on the world. And understanding that it is unique, because of your background, your bias. You know, we can try to not be biased all we want, but my perspective will always be my perspective. And that will always be shaped by my experiences. And I think one of the best things we can do to broaden that perspective is education and travel. Right?
Because those are two things that give us the ability to broaden our lens. To sort of let more light in and kind of get a bigger or better–less myopic view of whatever’s going on. And again–like we said earlier–don’t be binary. We’re so conditioned for everything to be yes or no, black or white. You know, Colin Kaepernick–which side are you on? And there’s so many more things… There’s so many more levels, so many more conversations about yes or no or this or that.
Mark: There’s at least three. Your side, my side, and the other side. Or the right side. But I love what you’re saying, because it dovetails…
First let me talk about developmental psychology says we all grow through three major stages–ego, ethno- and world-centric. And very few people technically get to that world-centric phase. So if you look at the world today most people are in the ego and the ethnocentric. You know, ego is all about me so everyone every country that is in survival mode? All ego right? And it’s not a judgment, it’s just they don’t have the time or the energy to develop beyond that. I got to fight for my survival.
And then most major countries are in the ethnocentric and then the cultural gets stuck or solidified at that china versus American exceptionalism. China the middle kingdom like all the whole entire world surrounded around the middle kingdom. You had to pay homage to the middle kingdom or supplication to it and the Chinese mindset epigenetically and culturally has never moved beyond that. And so Chinese are awesome people, they’re brilliant people, but they’re very race-centric right?
Same thing with the Russians. Russians, you know, like “boom.” this is the Motherland. And so we have extreme ethnocentrism.
And then the religions have done it too. Religions are extremely ethnocentric.
Ryan: In business too.
Mark: In business as well, yeah…
Ryan: If you look at the stages of development for business, you have that survival phase which is all about ego and me. And then you move into market space
Mark: Yeah. Us versus them. You know, you can become a global company like Coca-Cola and you’re gonna be more world-centric. And even the leaders that they attract are world-centric. And someone like Coke–I mean, I can’t stand the product–but now I think that they’re gonna be one of solutions. Because they can distribute water right so every single person in the world. Like who knew that in the 21st century Coca-Cola could solve a water crisis? When in the 20th century they poisoned people to death. Fascinating isn’t it?
But so we want to move people toward a world-centric point of view which breaks down the separation that the ethno- and the ego centrism has created in individuals. The only way to do that is to expand your perspective. And the only way to do that, is to overcome your biases.
Ryan: Yeah. I agree. I couldn’t have said it better.
Mark: So let’s start doing that.
Ryan: Let’s do it.
Mark: (laughing) you first.
Ryan: Does it start by fucking your feelings?
Mark: (laughing) it starts by fucking your feelings.
Ryan: But by definition, in order to move past the ego, you have to your feelings right?
Mark: You have to. Right. In the context of what you mean by that, which is get control of them, don’t let them run you. Which means understand that every decision you make has got some sort of either feeling, emotion, or cognitive bias to it.
I want to point out and maybe, Geoff, you can link to it–there is such a cool chart that someone–I wish I had his name and please put in the show notes–but put up on… It’s called the bias map. It’s a big circular map and he organizes all of our biases. Into these major organizational chunks. And then he’s got them all listed in such a cool way to look at this. You could just quick google search you’ll find it. It looks like a big eyeball or a circle. Remember that? I’ve used it before? I just can’t remember the people who put it together did a lot of work on it and then they put it out there for free. (John Manoogian III) So they deserve credit.
But anyways, everyone should print that out and put it up on their wall and just circle the ones that really kind of have messed up their lives. You know what I mean? Because these vices kind of show up in patterns. I look at it this way, there’s long wave patterns. There’s things that like build, build, build, build, build. And all of a sudden bam. “There I go again. How could I have possibly done that again?”
And then there’s the stupid little things you do every day that cause you to make dumb little decisions, right? So if we make dumb little decisions every day and dumb big decisions guess what? Our life is gonna be a mess.
But if we can overcome and look at those biases, fuck the feeling, you know? By getting more pragmatic about just appreciating that our brains don’t work the way we think they work. Know what I mean?
Mark: We think that they are all these awesome tools, but they’re really, really rudimentary. They have to be trained.
And I liken it to like a wild stallion. Wild stallion is freaking dangerous. Our brains are crazy powerful and dangerous until you begin to understand the stallion and tame it. And then it’s equally as powerful, it’s just working in service of you, instead of against you.
Big and Small Decisions
Ryan: Exactly. And that’s why it’s so important that we do the self-examination and that deep work to discover what those biases are. What our values are. And you mentioned big decisions, little decisions.
The big decisions are obvious. It’s all the little ones along the way that make the difference. And I like to imagine certain scenarios–I’m a very visual person so I like to look at things and I think like bud/s is a perfect analogy. Given your background and because you have so many opportunities along the way. You know, let’s say I say “okay, I’m gonna do this and I’ve qualified.” and I show up on day one, right?
Well from day one until graduation day, there are so many opportunities where I can choose immediate gratification, comfort, safety, whatever based on how I feel. As opposed to making a choice that’s in line with my values. And yes making that decision in that moment might be a big decision, if I decide to ring the bell. But it’s really because of something little like I was cold or…
Mark: Yeah, the ring the bell is the sum total of probably a thousand small quits in the mind already happening.
Ryan: Right. And that’s why I say, it’s all the little ones. It’s not the big ones. We know the big ones. Like, don’t go out and rob somebody right? That’s a big decision, right?
It’s all the little ones along the way that really lead us off track…
Mark: Or if you’re gonna rob someone, do it really well and don’t get caught.
Ryan: Okay. We can go that way too.
Mark: (laughing) different thought process there.
Ryan: Yeah, we’re not telling anybody to rob…
Mark: But I like to use it so let’s say a younger listener–or my son for that matter–I’ve been thinking about that. Like he’s in college right now. So the big decision is do I go to college or not? And a lot of times, you know, your parents basically are saying yes or no. And a lot of people… Though, you know it’s like this third decision. It really is.
But then all the little decisions determine whether you’re going to Harvard or to the community college. Or whether you got to take you know go to join the navy because… Unless it’s a financial issue, of course, right?
Ryan: Right. Right.
Mark: So you make all those good little decisions for four years and when you put your college apps in, all of a sudden you find out your decision matrix has changed. Quite a bit right?
Same thing with fitness and nutrition. Same thing with pretty much any goal. So this kind of speaks to how we… How biases affect our goal-setting process, because a, back to the way we use language. Goals… Our biases dictate how we set goals, or whether we set goals. And most people don’t do that very well.
And b, setting a goal and then not being able to chunk it down to these micro-decisions and then managing your feelings and your emotions and your thoughts around these micro-decisions. So that the major decision… The major goal is almost irrelevant at that point. It’s gonna happen because you just set up this condition or you’re just knocking down these dominoes and each domino’s developing more momentum and more power for you.
Ryan: Absolutely. And there’s a saying that I love, that is “processes get results. Not people.”
Ryan: And, you know, I think I love that because when someone…
Mark: I just did a podcast where the author said that it’s the process not the goal.
Mark: So it’s not people or the goal, probably, right?
Ryan: No it’s the actions
Mark: It’s better to set a process for a specific outcome than it is to set a goal. Do you agree with that? That was his thing.
Ryan: Yeah, I coach people to focus on actions, not outcomes. If you’re showing up and you’re doing the right thing day in and day out–not worried about the outcome. The outcome will come right? If we apply it to…
Mark: I like to think that you have a vision for the outcome. Like if you said you’re a very visual person. I’m a very visual person. I think everyone has that capacity. Have a vision for the outcome…
Ryan: You design the actions to get there…
Ryan: And you focus on those actions, every single day. And then that will lead you… So, again, if we go back to like health and fitness as the example–somebody might say “well I want to lose 10 pounds this month.” and if they’re only focused on that, but they’re not lining up the actions that will lead them to it. “I’m gonna eat right 90% of the time according to this diet that I got from so-and-so. I’m going to work out three times a week. I’m going to sleep eight hours. I’m gonna do you know Kokoro yoga. I’m gonna do these things each week.”
If you’ve knock off all of those actions, at the end of the month maybe you lost nine pounds. Are you gonna be disappointed? If you hadn’t focused on the actions–if you had just said “I’m gonna lose ten pounds,” and you lose nine, you’re gonna be disappointed. If you focus on the actions, maybe you didn’t hit the ten, but more importantly you made lifestyle changes that are moving you towards being the person who is healthier. Has a handle on the way they eat, the way they move, the way they go through these practices.
So again, it’s… Whether you want to call them actions or processes… It’s about that and doing it with consistency. And longevity.
Mark: Right. It’s interesting, you’re bringing up a thought from one of our clients who’s just a phenomenal guy. Has already…you know, he’s probably lost 100 pounds or something like that? Maybe more? Eric?
And yet you know, he’s having a real hard time taking off the last you know 85, right? He’s at two something or 275 maybe? 265 and he wants to be 185 to 190.
And he’s doing everything right. Absolutely everything. His diet is dialed in. He’s working out five times a week. He’s done 4 20x’s. He can’t do Kokoro, because you know he’s gonna pass the standards and you can’t do the pull-ups yet, so he’s working on those.
And so the conversation I had… And it’s relative fucking your feelings is that it’s not gonna happen–this is my advice to him–and so this is not gonna happen until he has an image of himself at 185 that he actually believes. Because right now he still sees himself in his mind’s eye as overweight. As a fat guy. And so that is that back to that bias right? That is so deeply rooted in people. I mean you can’t…
We might be having fun with this topic, but I can’t overestimate how challenging it is to change an emotional pattern that was grooved in at a very young age.
And this is why people have such weight problems, and whatnot. Eating disorders and whatnot. All sorts of dysfunctions. All of those are grooved at a very young age. And you have to go back to that and route it out. And then you have to create a new image and a new feeling for who you are meant to be. Your ideal state–because everyone’s got it–of ideal health, ideal personality, ideal emotional balance, ideal weight, all that kind of stuff. You got to start believing that you are that person. You got to see it in your mind’s eye. You got to feel it. And then all the stuff we do on the outside will finally start to go the last few inches or miles
Ryan: And I’m so glad you said groove. Because habits are nothing more than neurological wiring. It’s a pattern right? So repetition creates permanence right? And muscles don’t have the capacity for memory. It’s neurological wiring…
Mark: I guess the point is that you got to take care of both the doing and the being. You have to create habits around what you do, but then you have to create mental emotional patterning around who you are. And who you want to be. And then those two need to line up.
Ryan: Exactly. And what I like the point there is if you never address the underlying emotional trigger… Or the bias… Whatever you want to call it. The thing that triggers the binge eating or whatever. Our brains are such that we will choose the path of most familiarity. And so if every time we have that trigger, this is how we respond, then anytime that trigger comes up that’s what you’re going to do. Because that’s what your brain is conditioned to do to cope.
Ryan: Right so exactly what you’re saying… That’s why you have to address both.
Mark: Yeah, this is interesting… I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole too long… But I’ve seen this a lot with people who have addictions. Is that they don’t really address the trigger they just change the behavior of what they do when it’s triggered.
Mark: So instead of grabbing for the drink, they grab the cigarette. Or they grab the cookie, right? And so their addiction stays. They just change the behavior.
Ryan: It’s a different form of distraction.
Mark: Right. Interesting.
So you got to do both. It’s not easy work though is it?
Ryan: It’s not. I think it’s the hardest, but also the most valuable work that we can do.
Mark: And the most gratifying. If you truly want to transform yourself, then you got to work on at the emotional level I think.
Mark: And so I think your book is great. It’s a great contribution in that regard. Cause it’s practical, and it’s fun and tongue-in-cheek, but also with some great information. Where can people find more information about you? And your book? And what’s next for you?
And what’s next for us, is kind of continuing to speak and do consulting to kind of get that message out. And help individuals and businesses on the personal side.
But then with our podcast “Better Human Project” really trying to have conversations like these. Like the one that we’ll have with you on our show. And advance that conversation of not just how do we get better. But what are we doing with that to improve the world. Like you said–I think you said it so eloquently–moving beyond the ego and then the ethnocentric and then getting into that worldview you know how do we contribute to others?
Mark: I love that you’re doing that work and, you know, it’s critical for us basically to save humanity from itself. You know what I mean? We have about a generation, in my opinion, to get it right.
Ryan: I think so. Yeah, I think so too. It’s scary, but like you said, I think some of the things that are the most scary are usually the things that most need our attention and end up being the most rewarding.
Mark: Yeah. And we’ve got to be the change we want to see in the world right? We can’t go out there and talk about this stuff, without modeling it and doing it.
Mark: And you can’t change the world if you’re all screwed up inside.
Ryan: Well said.
Mark: So thanks for what you do and appreciate you being here.
Ryan: Appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, Mark.
Mark: Hooyah. And now it’s time for you to do Kokoro camp.
Mark: You hear that? It’s been said.
Ryan: You got me on the boat crews, man. In the intro. When you said there’s gonna be boat crews. Like we didn’t get that at the one I did.
Mark: Yeah, well, that was an early version and you know Quattro-Deuce and Brad were just trying to keep you all separate and mess with you. But yeah, so in Kokoro camp we definitely organize by boat crews, and we’re really getting into the team aspect, right? Because nothing ever important is accomplished alone. Including your own transformation.
Ryan: Right. And I mean, that’s come up in all of our conversations. There’s always a mentor, there’s always a coach, there’s always a guide.
But, you know, that was… And I hope we’re still recording. I mean use this as a testimonial, as a standalone, whatever. This is not because we’re on your show. But my experience as SEALFIT… I think what we did is now what’s known as 20x.
Ryan: Life-changing experience. Hands down maybe top three, top five day of my life.
Mark: And doable by anybody. People think it’s too hard, but it’s just not. You just got to go. Start. Just go. And ask for help when you need it right?
Ryan: Yeah. And I think… I mean, I don’t know if I would be who I am today without that experience. So if anybody is on the fence, I can’t recommend it enough. And I can’t thank you enough for putting something like that out into the world, because I know you’ve helped thousands of people, if not millions.
Mark: Well we were just talking to Allison about doing some affiliate relationships, so maybe you can help us promote it.
Ryan: We can do that. We’re gonna help you promote the burpees thing, and like I said, we really enjoy what you’re doing and want to get behind it and support it so we’ll talk about that on our show.
Mark: All right. Hooyah.
Ryan: Thank you, Mark.
Anyways, thanks for your attention today. Appreciate it. This is important work let’s support Ryan and his podcast “better human project” and stay focused, train hard, do the work, uncover your biases, feed the courage wolf and be unbeatable. See you next time. Hooyah.